Button back mark assistance sought
 

These are police buttons rather than military buttons but I expect there should be a cross over of the back mark details.

I have tried to do a search of the "crossed swords" trade mark and keep coming up with the fact that it was the mark of Buttons Ltd, an amalgamation of several button manufacturers on 1907.

This is a bit confusing because I am sure that the crown on one of the buttons is a Victorian crown which would indicate probable use well before 1907. One of the sites I googled, one that mentioned Buttons Ltd, also had the notation "Ref Thomas Carlysle". I can not find out much about Thomas Carlysle other than he was around in 1875.

Can anyone tell me if the crossed swords was perhaps the trade mark of Thomas Carlysle and was carried forward as the mark for Buttons Ltd after the amalgamation came into effect. Any other clarification of the trade mark that would help in dating my buttons would be appreciated.

In the meantime I am presuming that one of my buttons is a V Crown by Thomas Carlysle from before 1901 and the other a K Crown by Thomas Carlysle possibly from before the amalgamation in 1907

All help appreciated

I Man

Hi Donny

Nice buttons! As you say, one is QVC (pre 1902) and the other is KC (post 1902).

The crossed swords trade mark was definately used by Buttons Ltd, formed in 1907. Unfortunately, I don't know if it was used by any other company prior to that but obviously your buttons suggest that it was.

Thomas Carlyle Ltd was still a button manufacturer until at least the late 1890's.

Hope this is of some help although I realise it doesn't really answer your question!

David


Donny - further to the above, some sources say Buttons Ltd was formed in 1908. Either way, they operated two separate factories in Birmingham. The largest of these had been the premises of Thomas Carlyle. The company was in business until 1959.
Perhaps Buttons Ltd did adopt the trademark previously used by Carlyle, but I don't know. Maybe someone else does?

G'day David,

Thanks for your input.

As you say, you have not really answered my question but you do seem to agree with my interpretation of the markings and you understand my quandary for which I am thankful.

All other images of the crossed sword back mark that I have come across have had the words "BUTTONS Ltd" somewhere on the back. Mine seem to imply that the manufacturers were SWORD.

I guess I would have taken the back mark to be a variation of the BUTTONS Ltd manufacturer if it had not been for the one with the Queen Victoria crown. I can't imagine why one of those would have been manufactured in 1907/1908, or even later.

Hopefully there is still someone who has the answer.

Donny B.

One of my QVC Canada Militia buttons has the following backmark:

Thomas Carlyle, Aston Birmingham England, Trade Mark <image of crossed swords>

The "Crossed Swords, Trademark" was one of several trademarks used by Carlyle.

Hi Donny

It's quite possible that some Police Officers in Western Australia were still wearing QVC buttons as late as 1907/1908 but I think it's extremely unlikely that they were still being manufactured by that date.

I think the "Sword" name and symbol were a trade name and trademark rather than anything to do with a company of that name but I could be wrong.

Personally, I think you probably answered your own question in your original post: the trademark was perhaps originally used by Carlyle and maybe they were the main component in the new Buttons Ltd Co and they continued with a similar mark.

That's all conjecture though, hopefully someone will have a difinitive answer!

David


Ha! the post above came on while I was putting my post on, I think that solves it!

David

Hello

I can confirm that Buttons Limited was indeed set up in 1907, although some sources say they did not start production until a year or so later. Buttons Limited was an amalgamation of three existing Birmingham button firms, Thomas Carlyle Ltd, Harrison Smith Ltd and Plant, Green and Manton Ltd. All three companies were button manufacturers in the late 19th century. The idea was to be better able to compete for business against foreign competition.

If you follow this link and scroll down the inset book page you will see an early advert for Thomas Carlyle which shows their crossed swords trade mark. It would seem that your Victorian button was indeed made by Carlyle. The later button could have been made by them or Buttons Limited who used the same trade mark.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=m...%20ltd&f=false

Regards
Roger

Thanks for the input BTNS......another QVC button.

There is no doubt, now, that the crossed swords mark was carried forward by Carlyle, but since the wording on your button differs from that on mine there must have been changes in the form of the mark over a period of time. It would be helpful in dating and interesting to know when those changes took effect.....but that will be another project.

Thanks for you input. Very helpful!

Donny B.

And the following post by Cribyn confirms it. Thanks for your interest and input, David.


Donny B.

Thanks for your confirmation of our conjectures, Roger.

In following your link, I was pleased to see that the trade mark at the top of the letter head carried the words "SWORD MAKE" and it was formed and otherwise worded exactly as on my buttons.

Thanks for your guidance and help.

Donny B.

You are welcome. Here is another one, presumably by Carlyle:
"English Make, trade mark, crossed swords <image of crossed swords>"
It is on a Zuid Afrikaansche Republiek police button.

From "Trade Marks Journal", 12 April 1893: Thomas Carlyle and John Mark Carlyle, trading as Thomas Carlyle, registered the "Crossed Swords" mark (reg. no. 169,634) on 5 January 1893.

Rex

Ah ha! Another date to work to.

Thanks Rex!

Donny B.