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  #1  
Old 11-06-12, 10:57 PM
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fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
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Default K&K missing chapter?

Going through Kipling & King volume one today, it struck me that there seems to be a chapter missing?
Chapter 11: The Glengarry Badges of the Pre-Territorial Era: 1874 to 1881.
Chapter 12: Slouch-Hat and Forage-Cap Badges worn by the Regular Infantry Regiments:1898 to 1921.
As K&K appears to be chronological, what was worn in the years between 1881 and 1898?

Rgds,

Thomas.
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  #2  
Old 11-06-12, 11:29 PM
Chrisr Chrisr is offline
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The helmet plate centre with a detached crown on top.

Chap 10.

Regards
Chris
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  #3  
Old 11-06-12, 11:39 PM
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Thanks Chris, I overlooked that. It narrows it down to 1895 -1898, as the introduction to Chapter 10 states: "With the exception of Scottish regiments the Glengarry ceased to be worn after 1895".

Rgds,

Thomas.
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  #4  
Old 12-06-12, 01:24 AM
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John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fougasse1940 View Post
what was worn in the years between 1881 and 1898?

Rgds,

Thomas.
generally speaking for Undress/Service dress for Line Infantry (Sgts and Other Ranks) I believe the following is true.

1881-c. 1893
the Glengarry was worn from 1881 c. 1893. As you know with the HPC & Crown or special badge for regiments that did not wear the Home Service Pattern Helmet as mentioned earlier. Covered in Ch 10 & 18.

c. 1893-c. 1902
The Field service cap (FSC) was introduced in line Infantry, other than Scottish regiments, from 1893. The badge previously worn on the glengarry was too big for use in the FSC and the WO ordered that the left collar badge was to be worn as a cap badge, with some exceptions. Not covered at all in K&K. From 1894/1895 regiments began to design special badges for this headdress. Ch 12

c. 1902.-c. 1906
FSC replaced by 1) New Pattern Forage cap (Brodrick), FSC badges fitted with sliders for this cap. essentially ch 12 2) the so-called, slouch hat, approved for service dress. For cavalry the FSC badge was to be used, infantry regiments were to use their helmet plate centres, and both were to be fitted with a long slider. Where a regiment did not wear the home service helmet, the glengarry, or existing full dress badge was to be worn. Fusilier regiments were to wear the glengarry pattern badge, but this was now fitted with a slider. Really just a fitment change and thus covered by chapters, 10, 12, 14(for cavalry) & 18.


both 1 & 2 were short lived.
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  #5  
Old 12-06-12, 09:06 PM
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Thank you John, that is most helpful.

Rgds,

Thomas.
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  #6  
Old 03-09-12, 04:21 AM
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BILL DUGGAN BILL DUGGAN is offline
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Thumbs up long slider glengarry badge info

c. 1902.-c. 1906
FSC replaced by 1) New Pattern Forage cap (Brodrick), FSC badges fitted with sliders for this cap. essentially ch 12 2) the so-called, slouch hat, approved for service dress. For cavalry the FSC badge was to be used, infantry regiments were to use their helmet plate centres, and both were to be fitted with a long slider. Where a regiment did not wear the home service helmet, the glengarry, or existing full dress badge was to be worn. Fusilier regiments were to wear the glengarry pattern badge, but this was now fitted with a slider. Really just a fitment change and thus covered by chapters, 10, 12, 14(for cavalry) & 18.


Hi John, I have a L.F. glengarry badge with a long slider. I wish to send it to the museum at Bury Lanc's.

Could you tell me where you sourced the above information as I can't find it in K&K Vol 1

Many thanks in anticipation........Bill Duggan

ps I value your opinions highly.
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  #7  
Old 03-09-12, 04:56 AM
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John,

Many thanks for your very informative post. Much appreciated.

Regards
Chris
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  #8  
Old 03-09-12, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mulcahy View Post
c. 1902.-c. 1906
FSC replaced by 1) New Pattern Forage cap (Brodrick), FSC badges fitted with sliders for this cap. essentially ch 12 2) the so-called, slouch hat, approved for service dress. For cavalry the FSC badge was to be used, infantry regiments were to use their helmet plate centres, and both were to be fitted with a long slider. Where a regiment did not wear the home service helmet, the glengarry, or existing full dress badge was to be worn. Fusilier regiments were to wear the glengarry pattern badge, but this was now fitted with a slider. Really just a fitment change and thus covered by chapters, 10, 12, 14(for cavalry) & 18.


both 1 & 2 were short lived.
If I'm reading what you're saying correctly - as far as I'm aware and from photographic evidence the NF certainly didn't adopt a long slider glengarry badge for the 'slouch' hat they went onto use the standard pattern badge used for the Broderick. The same can also be said of the Volunteer Battalions who continued to wear the 'slouch' hat long after it's disappearance from the regulars.

Nor was the FSC adopted for the Broderick - the collar badge, as you correctly state was used on the FSC and St.George & Dragon placed in the North/South position, but the other ranks Broderick badge was a 'new' pattern introduced in 1902 and based on the officers silver & gilt badge adopted in 1899, with a gosling green backing.

The Field Service Cap and Slouch hat are infact two distinctive types of head-dress.

During this period one has to tread carefully, when looking at the varieties of head-dress and the badge patterns adopted by regiments to suite.

Last edited by Graham Stewart; 03-09-12 at 08:50 AM.
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  #9  
Old 03-09-12, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Stewart View Post

During this period one has to tread carefully, when looking at the varieties of head-dress and the badge patterns adopted by regiments to suite.
Graham, I agree fully one has the tread carefully, as there was a rapid succession of changes in forage cap and service dress caps in the period 1902 - 1906, and it is not always certain thal all changes were made by a particular regiment before the order was in turn superceeded.

The information that I quoted comes from the RACD list of changes to be found in WO359 at the National Archives.

The NA copyright policies forbid me from posting an image of the entry on a public forum but here is a transcription from WO359/VOL 12/PAGE 120 & 121.

Margin Title "Badges Cap Headdress, F.S. Helmet with band"

Text "ACD/38/528 5/1/03. At a meeting of A.G(?) J (?) , COO & C.I. in pattern room on 5/1/03 it was agreed that the same badges should be used for both F.S. Helmet and Universal Headdress.
That the centre of helmet plate shall be used for above in all cases where a centre of helmet plate is used. In other cases the glengarry badge or existing full dress badge.

For cavalry the field service cap badge to be used for FSH & universal headdress. The whole of the above to be fitted with a single vertical shank.
For N.P. forage caps that existing field cap badges shall be used to be fitted with a vertical shank but cap not to be fitted with a socket.
The existing sealed pattern centre plates and badges be ammended by a note on the label stating that when supplies are required for services with either FS helmet or universal headdress a vertical shank will be required.
"

On 7th April 1903 the RACD ledger (vol 12 p158) has an entry showing that the firm Smith & Wright submitted 5 lead impressions of the badges for the Lancashire, Royal Scots, Royal Welsh, Royal Dublin and Royal Irish Fusiliers.

The Lancs & Dubs were deemed satisfactory. The Royal Scots is annoted the Lions face must be improved - too flat. The Royal Welsh Fus , the flames must not be blurred, The Royal Irish Fus , the left wing is damaged.

Later again page 176 dated 18/5/11903 shows the deposition of standard patterns for "Badges Grenades for service headdress & F.S. Helmet with Pith band all ranks Deposited were Lancashire, R. Scots, R. Welsh, R. Munster, R, Dublin & R. Irish. They are all annoted First Pattern". Bill in my IM I was mistaken, I do have a note of the SPN of the Lancs , it is 5866/1903.

Now as Graham points out, you need to be careful with this time period because even if a decision was taken on a certain course of action it does not follow that it was universally implemented before it was superceeded. In this case the universal headdress referred to is the Terai, or Slouch Hat, it was officially sealed (SPN 5849/1902) in 1902 as the headdress to be used with the new khaki service dress when on maneuvers and on service abroad. But of course it was in use prior to this date and it was officially obsoleted in very short order on 5th Jan 1904.

Julian (KLR) has noted elsewhere that the whole plan to produce these badges for the slouch hat appears to have been a failed effort. I cannot comment on whether the Lanc Fusiliers implemented the changes, I have seen these badges for the Dubs (I have a sample) and photos of ones for the Munsters (the regiment that interests me). I have never seen any evidence (and I have studied many images and photos) that the Munsters wore their grenade in the FSH and neither in the Universal headdress. At the time these changes went through 1 RMF was in Mooltan and probably (I speculate) never had to re-order anything before the slouch hat was obsoleted. They certainly were not wearing a grenade in the FSH at this time. 2 RMF being at Kinsale & Gib probably never needed these headdresses.

Remember rgts going to India were ordered to bring a quite a supply of spares with them

sources (U.K. The War Office, Regulations for the Supply of Clothing and Necessaries to the Regular Forces, (London, HMSO 1881), Part 1 section XXXII, page 143 Para 943 & 944 instructed units to take 12 months consumption with them. Each supply was to contain a sealed pattern of each article issued. Page 19 of the Army Circular for Sept. 1882 indicated that for an Infantry Regiment 200 badges was 12 months’ supply for the forage (Glengarry) cap.
(Clothing Regulations 1914 paragraph 341 as quoted in David Linaker, Gordon Dine Cavalry Warrant Officers and Non Commissioned Officers Arm Badges, (Military Historical Society Special Publication 1997) p128 footnote 18. Units were instructed to take 50% spares with them)


For those interested COO = Chief Ordnance Officer where I have put a "?" I cannot decipher the initial

I hope this adds to the discussion rather than detract from it.

John

Last edited by John Mulcahy; 03-09-12 at 01:17 PM. Reason: corrected typo "of" to "or"
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  #10  
Old 03-09-12, 12:58 PM
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[QUOTE=Graham Stewart;180992]If I'm reading what you're saying correctly - as far as I'm aware and from photographic evidence the NF certainly didn't adopt a long slider glengarry badge for the 'slouch' hat they went onto use the standard pattern badge used for the Broderick.
QUOTE]

Graham

as I dug out my notes and photos to respond, the interesting thing in all my records is that the NF do not appear once in the notes and photos I took of this change. Being interested in Irish regiments I would not have made much note of the NF in my visits to the NA but this "omission" is rather curious all the same. Nor do I see the RF mentioned.

With regard to the FSC, if I was not clear what I was trying to say was that , by this time (1902) the collar badges had been replaced by new cap badge designs for the FSC by most regiments which went on to be used in most cases, in the forage caps .

John

Last edited by John Mulcahy; 03-09-12 at 03:00 PM. Reason: clarified the comment on new pattern badges for FSC
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  #11  
Old 03-09-12, 01:02 PM
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Hi John,

I hope this finds you all well ?

The hard work and effort put into researching so deeply is really appreciated, certainly a dedication that I can in no way match, all of you who take the trouble to enlighten those of us who do not speak the language, as in your last post, should be applauded for this, so I doubt if what you wrote would detract from anything previously written ??

Kind regards and thanks.

Dave.
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  #12  
Old 03-09-12, 01:46 PM
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BILL DUGGAN BILL DUGGAN is offline
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Default Slidered fusilier glengarry badge

Here is my L.F. glengarry with slider. It certainly looks pukka to me.

I wish to send it to the museum at Bury but I am having difficulty getting them to understand when and what the badge was used for.

Regards N.F; Colin Woods excellent book 'The Fifth Fusiliers and it's Badges'
page 44 (glengarry badges) states that "This badge, probably intended for the white field service helmet 1904-14, was fitted with a slider instead of the two loops (sealed 1902). It may also have been worn on the felt hat.

I presume that he means slouch hat (or Terai hat) ?
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Last edited by BILL DUGGAN; 03-09-12 at 02:12 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 03-09-12, 01:58 PM
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Just a quick clarification to John's excellent post no 9.
"Julian (KLR) has noted elsewhere that the whole plan to produce these badges for the slouch hat appears to have been a failed effort."

The badges I was referring to are specifically the 'HPC's with long sliders designed to be worn on both the FSH and the Universal Headress. This did not include Fusilier regiments as they had separate grenade insignia. A meagre makers list only has a dozen or so line infantry units but I suspect there may have been others.

Anyway, it is this project that I suspect was an expensive failure. I know physical examples exist of such badges and of the socket specially made to hold them, but I'm not aware of any photographs showing this HPC badge being worn.
Besides, when infantry "cap badges" appeared in around 1896 most patterns were specifically sealed for wear on both the FSC and the FSH ! - so that's what most of them wore (before we get on to the subject of "flashes" etc).

I'm afraid I can't help you on the grenade badges - as the KLR never wore them.
John has certainly looked at the evidence / regulations for these and I think David Linaker had notes on the subject too.

(To complicate matters there was an earlier order about HPCs being fitted with only two loops [of the stalked circle variety] for wear on just the FSH. Again no photographs - though you wouldn't know what the fixing was from such an item in wear.)

BTW, although the Univ Hdress / slouch / terai etc was dropped by the regulars it was still worn by the Vol Bns and later TF Bns.
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  #14  
Old 03-09-12, 03:09 PM
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John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN View Post
.

I presume that he means slouch hat (or Terai hat) ?
Yes I believe so, I think you could present this as an example of SPN 5866/1903 , sealed for wear on the FSH & Universal Service Hat but whether ever actually worn by the regiment to be determined.

Below is the back of my RDF example.

John
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  #15  
Old 03-09-12, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN View Post
Regards N.F; Colin Woods excellent book 'The Fifth Fusiliers and it's Badges'
page 44 (glengarry badges) states that "This badge, probably intended for the white field service helmet 1904-14, was fitted with a slider instead of the two loops (sealed 1902). It may also have been worn on the felt hat.

I presume that he means slouch hat (or Terai hat) ?
Which is a footnote to item 124 and yet there is no clear evidence of it ever being worn in the slouch(felt) hat at all - and I suspect Denis new that. The badge described only ever appears on one occassion and that's in a watercolour of a Drummer in India, wearing both the glengarry badge and the red pagri with the white FSH - however it never appears again worn in any other head dress of the NF post-1902.
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